Revealing The Genius Foods That Help You Prevent Disease | Max Lugavere | LIFESTYLE | Rubin Report


– It was super frustrating. I went with my mom to the
most storied cathedrals to Western medicine, and in every instance
I experienced what I’ve come to call
diagnose and adios. And I have a lot of
respect for medicine, in fact when I started college
I wanted to be a doctor. I was premed for
the first few years. But truly in none of
those doctor offices was diet or lifestyle
ever really brought up. (upbeat music) – I’m Dave Rubin, and this is the “Rubin Report.” As always guys click that
little subscribe button on YouTube so you might, just might see our videos. Now, joining me today
is a New York Times Best Selling of “Genius Food,” and the new book
“The Genius Life,” Max Lugavere, welcome back
to “The Rubin Report.” – So good to be here,
thank you for having me. – New York Times
Best Selling author. – Yeah. – Were you a New York Times
Best Selling Author last time? – I was not, no. – Yeah, you were
about to become. – About to become. I didn’t know it at the time. I had no idea how
well “Genius Foods” would ultimately do, but I’m super grateful, humble that it’s reached big audiences. Now published in eight
languages around the world. It’s super cool. I was in Columbia,
I was in Bogota. And I had like a line of Spanish-speaking fans lined
up to get their books signed. And we could barely communicate, but it was so
gratifying to see that. – How does it change one’s life to become a New York
Times Best Selling Author? – You know I think it’s– – I mean does it really
level up the amount of stuff that you suddenly get ’cause people are like
oh this guy actually does know what he’s talking about, it’s not just a book about– – Yeah, it’s a credential. And I’m very, I never
misrepresent myself. I mean I’m a, I
write about health and science but
I do it not from, not with having a
background in academia or medicine, I’m just
passionately curious, and it’s a topic that I think is the most important
topic there is. But the fact that the
book continues to be, it wasn’t just sort of a, there’s this metaphor
in book sales, when you launch a book
it’s like throwing, you could be throwing
either a feather or a brick. And a feather is what
you want to happen because a feather it goes up and then it kind of floats. The brick just ends
up coming right down. And the fact that “Genius Foods” has kind of just stayed up, and it continues to sell well, to me is a testament
to the quality of the work really, ultimately. As a writer that’s the best form of flattery that you can get, that your writing is embraced and it continues to do well. So yeah, I’m super thrilled. It’s given me the
opportunity to write this book, “The Genius Life.” I have since launched
my own podcast, which is also called
The Genius Life. So it’s allowed me to get to do what I love to do full time. And, as you know,
it’s a great thing to be, to work for yourself and to be driven
on your own steam. – Yeah, it’s a
pretty sweet thing. And you’re building a studio in your apartment, which I know a little
something about that. So we could do a
separate show on that. But for people that didn’t see our first interview, we’ll link too it in this so they can jump back. But one of the things I find
most interesting about you, and you and I now go back
like six, seven years, so before you wrote
“Genius Foods.” Your story on how
you came to kind of care about this stuff is, well it’s deeply personal, but it’s also pretty
fascinating actually. Could you do a
quick recap on that? – Absolutely, yeah. I started as a journalist. I was a generalist working
for Al Gore’s Current TV, which is not a, my
role there was not as a flag bearer of his
political ideas and environmental ideas. I got the job right
out of college, and I got to cover stories
that were important to me. And they ranged from health to technology to
politics occasionally. But when I left that
job after six years I started spending
more and more time in New York City, which
is where I’m from, around my mother, and
I’m first born child, very close to my mom. She started, at the age of 58, to display the earliest
symptoms of dementia. And she had a very strange
confluence of symptoms. She had symptoms that
were more indicative of a memory disorder, and then she had
movement symptoms, which would indicate a
more Parkinsonian complex of Parkinson’s disease. And it was something that
was traumatic to witness. When we got the
initial diagnosis– – Were you literally
the first person that noticed anything, or was she noticing that
something was going on? – She started to complain of
brain fog, memory problems, but we didn’t have the
vernacular in my family, we had no prior family history of any kind of
neurodegenerative disease. And interstitialis,
my mom’s mom, my maternal grandmother was, she lived to 96, and she was cognitively
sharp until the end. So she was, my grandmother
was not demented. So the idea that my
grandma’s daughter, my mom, could somehow be succumbing
to this condition that I think most people assume to be an old person’s disease, just didn’t compute,
didn’t make any sense. And so when my mom was
initially prescribed the drugs for
Alzheimer’s disease and Parkinson’s disease,
that was the first time in my life I had ever
had a panic attack. You know I’m a pretty chill guy, but it was, I was
alone in the hotel room in Cleveland, Ohio googling
the drug prescriptions, which I think anybody
would do in that position. And the severity of the
situation really dawned on me at that moment. And from that point on I
decided to dedicate all of my free time to investigating why this would happen to my mom, would could be done to help her, what could be done to prevent
it from happening to myself. And that began about
eight years ago. And that was a
struggle, obviously, watching my mom descend and become more and
more handicapped by the disease. And that’s what motivated
me to write “Genius Foods,” and to do all the
work that I put out. And what occurred after
“Genius Foods” came out was equally surprising
and equally heartbreaking. I was in the middle
of writing this book when my mom turned yellow. And you could, I mean
usually if you turn yellow it’s either gonna be jaundice, or you’ve eaten too
much beta-carotene, you’ve eaten too many carrots. But what happens with jaundice, the whites of your eyes actually become yellow, that’s kind of what
distinguishes it from eating too
many sweet potatoes. And my family rushed her
to the emergency room, they did an MRI of her abdomen, and what they discovered
was not a gallstone, which is typically what, it’ll cause a blockage
in the bile duct, cause bilirubin,
which is a pigment to back up into your blood. What they found was much worse, it was a tumor on the
head of her pancreas. She was diagnosed with
pancreatic cancer. And 90% of the time when
pancreatic cancer is diagnosed it’s already progressed. And it was three
months and she was, it was the most, it was
barbaric and brutal, and that’s what she
ultimately passed from. But the fact that
my mom had these two freak health conditions, two
of the most feared conditions known to humanity, it
motivates me everyday to learn more, to teach more, and to just stay
open and curious, and always be willing to
challenge my assumptions and my beliefs
about what it means to be healthy in
the 21st Century. – Yeah, well that’s why I
think your story is so cool. Just like you’re a good guy, but also even when I
follow you on Instagram and you do a lot
of don’t eat this, eat this kind of stuff. It’s very human, you’re
not beating people over the head with all this. And I wanna get to some
of those techniques and little tricks that you use to make things a
little bit healthier. But when your mom got diagnosed, and then subsequently
when you did all of the things that
you tried to do over the course of that time, was anyone else
talking about food? Or was it all just like
this is what you take, this is what you take, we’ll up it here, if
this happens you do this. Was there any like
eat more avocado? – No, it was super frustrating. I went with my mom to the
most storied cathedrals to Western medicine
and in every instance I experienced what
I’ve come to call diagnose and adios. And I have a lot of
respect for medicine, in fact when I started college
I wanted to be a doctor, I was premed for
the first few years. But truly in none of
those doctors offices was diet or lifestyle
ever really brought up. And the contrast between
what I was experiencing in the clinicians
offices with my mom, and what I started to discover
in the medical literature, there was just this
big valley in between the dearth of information and the despair that I was
seeing there with my mom, and the optimism that
I was reading about in the medical literature. And ultimately what I did was I realized that I had
media credentials, and I started to reach
out to scientists and researchers who
were the authors of the papers that
I was reading. And they echoed that
sentiment of optimism. And yet at the point
of care with my mom what I experienced was
anything but optimistic. So I really had to
take it upon myself. And I think when
you’re a patient, my mom was scared,
she was confused. She didn’t have a
framework for understanding health or science or
anything like that. I did because I had a, I had had a lifelong
passion for the topic. But really I think
there are a lot of people in her
shoes that are met with the same kind of, I
don’t know, hopelessness. And yeah, you’re right, I mean what every doctor
would ultimately do would titrate up the dose of a medication
she was already on, throw something
new into the mix, and by the time my mom passed she was on 10 different
pharmaceuticals. I’m not even being hyperbolic. And there’s just no way
a physician can have any idea how each of those pills are interacting with one another in a body that’s growing
increasingly frail and sick. And in fact one
of the medications that my mom was prescribed was actually a drug
that’s contraindicated for people with cognitive
decline, with dementia. It’s a drug, it was
a drug in a category of drugs called
anticholinergics, which effect the way
the neurotransmitter acetylcholine operates, which is involved in
learning and memory. And in fact when
you have dementia, usually they’ll prescribe a drug to boost levels
of acetylcholine, and she was on this drug that basically was
negatively effecting the way that that drug works. And so, yeah, it
was a big problems. There was in-fighting
in my family. None of the doctors ever,
I think, de-prescribed. So she was on all these drugs. – Did you try to bring
up to the doctors oh maybe, I’ve seen this study, she should eat this, this, or we should move
this out of her diet? Or insert this, et. Cetera? – I tried. They, doctors tend to be down
on what they’re not up on. I think that’s part
of the training, but they are always
hyper skeptical of anything more on the, on the more wholistic
side of things. And to be clear, you know, I
didn’t change my mom’s diet and see a dramatic
improvement in her cognition. I think that the science
is really pointing towards prevention
as the key way in which we’re gonna
move the needle on this category of diseases. There is hope coming out
in the medical literature, really vigorous
lifestyle interventions can, I think, perhaps
slow the progression of Alzheimer’s disease,
Parkinson disease, but for dietary change for
anybody is difficult to do, let alone somebody
with dementia. – So for most of
use then that know that Alzheimer’s and dementia, these numbers seem to be
increasing and increasing, and your mom, you said 59? – [Max] She was 58– – 58 years old– – [Max] When it first stated. – That’s increasingly young. So let’s talk about some of those things that you can do before you’re sitting
at the doctor’s office and they’re giving you
the 10 medications. – Yeah I mean the first thing that you need to realize is that dementia often
begins in the brain decades before
the first symptom. And I saw that nobody
was talking about this. And that’s why I
decided to step up. It didn’t, the fact that
I wasn’t a medical doctor to me didn’t seem like
a barrier to entry because I genuinely believe
that people should know how to care for their bodies and their brains. And we’re just not taught this. We’re fed misinformation
from every conceivable angle, whether it’s the food industry, the way that they
market their foods, making health claims
on their products, to the way that
the media reports on health studies and research and things like that. So I think, I mean
what I’ve learned is that you really, the
standard American diet is toxic essentially. And anything that
you can do to run in the opposite
direction of that. – So what is the
standard American diet, if you’re painting that picture, what does that really look like? – There are images that you can, like you can go to Google Images and you can search for
the average shopping haul for your typical American family over the course of a week, and essentially it’s
all processed foods. Ultra-processed foods
to be more clear. Today, 60% of the
calories we’re consuming come from what are called
ultra-processed foods, which are made in factories. They usually are the
processed permutations of wheat, corn and
rice, maybe some soy. And they generally are what
food scientists refer to as being hyper palatable. So they are extremely
calorie dense, they’re not satiating. In fact, they actually can
make you hungry later on. – They often put
additives in there, right, that actually make
you want more, isn’t that the Dorito
effect or something? – Well I thin it’s the fac that, I mean these foods are just, they’ve become
impossibly delicious when you combine
sugar, fat, salt. These are, I mean
each of these flavors were relatively
scarce in antiquity, and today they’re just
abundantly available. Like sugar would be available to a hunter/gatherer once per year when it was summer and the fruit became ripe. And even then the fruits
that would be available to one of our ancestors
would be a fraction as sweet as they are today. – Right, the amount of apples you would have to eat
to get the sugar levels that you could get in a bag of Sour Patch Kids or something. – Yeah, like the ancestral apple was like a crab
apple essentially. Today we have these
cosmic crisp apples that are amazing,
don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of apples, but they’re bred to contain
more starch and sugar than ever before in history. And they’re also bred, a lot of our produce
now is being bred to remove these
bitter compounds, which are actually compounds that produce the
greatest health benefit when we consume them
like polyphenols and flavinoids and
things like that. So sugar, fat we know
is highly delectable, I mean it sends off our
brain’s reward centers. It’s one of the
reasons why we put half and half in our coffee, it just allows flavors
to linger on the tongue. And then salt. You know the word salary
derives from salt. It was something that was, it’s super important, we
need it for good health. Sodium is a macro mineral. It’s also one of these nutrients that’s been demonized over
the past couple of decades. But you combine
them all together and it’s basically like the 4th of July’s fireworks
in the brain. And it makes it impossible
to moderate our consumption of these foods. And so one of the ideas
that I’ve put forth in “The Genius Life,”
I tried to really make dietary recommendations without further harming
people’s relationship with food. I think people today have this fractured relationship
with food. – Yeah, I always see
when I’m at Trader Joe’s they have guilt free pita chips. And I’m always
like the fact that the word guilt is on there, like the idea that
you would be buying a regular pita chip and
feel guilty about it is kind of crazy. Putting aside whether
you want carbs or breads or whatever, but like the way
it’s all marketed. Guilt, these are
guilt free so you can walk out of here
and not feel guilty. Like that’s not the stuff
you should feel guilty over. – No, it’s ridiculous. I mean the truth is these foods are designed to be over consumed and without telling consumers how these foods are gonna
effect their behavior, when they try to moderate
their consumption of these pita chips or
the pint of ice cream, and they end up feeling
like moral failures ’cause they just simply can’t. That I think is where
the problem lies. On the other hand, if you actually are
aware that these foods, you know they’re so
easily over consumed, then it becomes
informed consent. Then you actually know
what you’re opting into and there shouldn’t
be any guilt about it you’re just making, you’re
an adult making a decision, which you should be able to do. You should be able to
eat whatever you want. But the problems is I
think that most people don’t know that these foods actually drive over consumption. There’s great study
that was published, and I wrote about what
these hyper-palatable, over-processed foods
do to our behavior in “Genius Foods,” but since “Genius
Foods” came out there was a great study
that was published. It actually was funded by
the National Institutes of Health, and they
found that when people were given all
you can eat access to an ultras-processed diet, it’s called ad libitum feeding, that people tend to over consume about 500 additional calories to reach the point of satiety. So just eat to a
point of fullness, people tend to over consume about 500 calories a day. – And you’re more
inclined to do that by eating processed foods. – With these
ultra-processed foods, yeah. – Because of the way
they’re making you feel. – Bagels, muffins,
pizzas, burritos, chicken dishes, potato chips, sandwiches,
things like that. Foods that are primarily
packaged, shelf stable, devoid of moisture which
actually can be satiating when food has water in it, but water is, it
makes food spoil. You have to remove the water
to make a product shelf stable. So they’re not satiating, they can often induce what’s
called biphasic hunger, so they can make
you hungry later on. And yeah 500 additional
calories a day, that might not seem like a lot, but stretched out over a week that’s a pound of fat gain. And then they, so it
was a cross over study, and when they put
these same people, when they gave them
access to foods that were minimally processed, again, ad libitum feeding, they were able to eat
until they were full, to the same degree of satiety, they actually under consumed
about 300 calories a day. So what that’s gonna do is
lead to effortless weight loss. So that’s really kind
of like the switch that I think people need to, people need to be aware of that. We tend to think that
we have full agency when it comes to our meal
choices, but we don’t. I mean we’re, our actions
are the end result of an inner play
between hormones, neurotransmitters, which are ultimately
influenced by the types of food that we’re eating. – Do you think more
than anything else you’re always, as someone
that cares about this and you’re trying to get
people to change their habits, it’s really always
about fighting a marketing machine that
is oddly ahead of you. So like if you just
turn on television, and every commercial you see
for like a breakfast food, suddenly they try to
make everything healthy, but it’s like an egg
you crack in this thing, and then it’s got
all this other stuff already in there, and it sort of seems healthy, you’re kind of like
oh I’m eating an egg in the mornuing and
it kinda seems right. And then I’m sure that when
you look at the instructions, or the ingredients on the back it’s like sodium
and everything else. But you have to
fight that constantly ’cause they’re marketing
it all as healthy. – Yeah I mean food marketing, they put products at eye level, they market to children. You know they get those, they forge those
habits early in life. They become exponentially
more difficult to break. But yeah I mean I think, I’m human so I eat
processed foods too. I’m just as guilty
as anybody else. But I think to be aware, I mean knowledge is power
at the end of the day, and to be able to act
on that knowledge, I mean that’s the
most empowering aspect of all of this because like health is
something that we do when we’re like pushing
the shopping cart through the aisles
of the super market or actually avoiding the aisles, ’cause that’s where all the ultra-processed
foods tend to be. And when we’re
debating with ourselves whether or not to
get to the gym, that’s really where
healthcare happens. What I experienced with my mom was sick care and the relative lack of options once you actually have one of these chronic
diseases that has set in. And so at the end of the day the food industry
doesn’t have your back. I mean the food
industry is great in many, it’s not– – It’s an industry,
like anything else. – It’s an industry. It’s not all bad, I mean food is safer. We’re exposed to fewer
pathogens than ever before. Hunger is less of an issue today than it is in the past if you’re in the
developed world. But a lot of these conditions that we’re seeing
society now struggle with are lifestyle mediated. They’re mediated by
being overly sedentary, by basing our diet around these ultra-processed foods. – You know it’s funny, I’m noticing now at Whole Foods, just because we’re in the midst of this odd thing
with coronavirus, that nobody, at least
at my Whole Foods, nobody’s touching the grains that you can do yourself. – [Max] The drive-in, yeah. – You know they’ve got
that wall of grains. Nobody’s even going
over there anymore. Which is I guess
good at the moment. Who knows. – Yeah, a lot of people are now using these hand sanitizers. If you go on Amazon the markup has just shot up exponentially. But something that
I think few people appreciate is that when
you use a hand sanitizer before you go shopping and then you touch the
store register receipt, the store register
receipts are actually coated with bisphenol A, which is a pretty potential
endocrine disruptor, that hand sanitizer, when
you use it just before or even just after you
touch these receipts, it actually dramatically,
at least in order of magnitude increases the permeability of your
skin to these components. So you wanna be, I don’t know– – That’s incredible. They’re literally selling hand
sanitizer at the register, people are buying it
right then and there. You put it on, you
grab the receipt and now, ugh. – Yeah, it’s not good. That’s actually a big topic
that I cover in the new book is endocrine disruption and enviornment toxins without trying to fear monger, but just to kind of alert people and to get people to think a little bit more critically about the industrial
chemicals to which they are routinely exposed. – All right so before
we go fully there, I wanna tell you
what my basic diet is on a day like today, where I told you
right before we sat– – I feel like we
did this last time. – We did do this last time, and I think I was
doing pretty good. But on a day like today, I’m having, I have a crazy day. I told you I have two shoots, then I have three other shows and we’re doing a live stream. And I’m gonna be just
crazed all day long. So this morning, all
I’ve had so far today, it’s about 10:00 right now. I had a cup of coffee. I grind the beans
myself, do that. I put a scoop of
collagen protein in there and a half teaspoon of
Lion’s Mane mushroom. – [Max] Nice. – Which is good for
the brain, as they say. I’ve had that, one cup, and I’ve had about 3/4 of a cup of oatmeal with
a little almond milk and a tiny bit of
sugar free syrup. And that’s gonna
get me to lunch. How am I doing in the morning? – It sounds pretty good. Wait, what was the protein? – It’s collagen
protein, so it’s like maybe 18 grams of
protein in a scoop, something like that. – Collagen is not a– – Yeah, talk to
me about collagen. This is LA, everybody’s
obsessed with collagen. You can’t go
anywhere without it. – Well I’m actually
a fan of collagen. Collagen’s one of the few, especially today
where we tend to eat, for the omnivores
in the audience, we tend to eat
mostly muscle meat, which is concentrated
in an amino acid called methionine. It’s an essential amino acid, but there is thinking
that by consuming too much methionine without adequate glycine, which is an amino
acid that is found predominately in
collagenous tissue and also in collagen protein. It’s about 1/3, 1/3 of collagen
protein is glycine. That might be to our determent, especially for an omnivore I think supplementing
with collagen protein is actually
a pretty good idea. – So coffee with a
little collage protein and some of the mushroom powder, I’m doing okay in the morning? – Yeah, I’m a fan of
Lion’s Mane as well. I use Lion’s Mane
powder, I think it’s, the studies on Lion’s Mane, it can potentially boost
nerve growth factor. And I’ve seen, there
was a clinical trial
performed in Japan where it’s been used to, what they observed was a
boost in cognitive function in patients with mild
cognitive impairment. So you know I’m a fan of these “medicinal mushrooms.” There’s not a ton
of research on them, but– – And then oatmeal,
little sugar free syrup, I’m doing okay? – Yeah, oatmeal’s okay. I mean it’s a little, for me it’s a
little high glycemic to have first thing
in the morning. But oatmeal, it’s a great source of soluble fiber,
it’s satiating. You’ve got these
beta-glucans in it, which are immunomodulatory. So yeah I think oatmeal is, steel cut is generally the best, it’s gonna have the lowest– – They’re steel cut, you can confirm when
you walk out of here. Okay so then I’ll
have two shows, and then I’m gonna have lunch. I think they placed
the order already. We’re doing like sweet greens or tender greens. Getting like a
Chipotle chicken salad. Romaine, there’s probably
a little cheese in there. – Yeah, I’m a big fan of the, I eat what I call a big
fatty salad every day. I feel like I might
have talked about this the last time I was here, but yeah researchers
at Rush University, actually one of the, the lead author in a lot of the studies that I use, that I cite in my
books and my talks, Martha Clare Morris,
she just passed away of esophageal cancer, she is the originator
of the mind diet. And she also has done a lot of the epidemiology surrounding risk factors for
cognitive decline. And what she found, what her team found is that the consumption of a big salad every day, about
a cup and a third of dark, leafy greens, is associated with brains that perform up to
11 years younger. So yeah, I mean there’s probably a strong, healthy
user bias there too. People who eat more
greens, more whole grains, things like that tend to
be more health conscious. But you know we know that dark, leafy greens are good for us. They contain carotinoids which are really
beneficial for eye health, for brain health. – Also you can eat a lot
of spinach really quick. You can put a whole
handful of it, and once it cooks down
it’s like three bites and you’re good. – Yeah. Spinach, I’m a fan of
dark, leafy greens. I mean we live in this
weird contentious time in nutrition where we’ve got
these different factions, like breaking off. We’ve got the vegans, we’ve got the carnivores, and so, I actually have a
pretty balanced message I think. I’m a strong advocate
of consumption of animal foods, grass-fed
beef, fatty fish, things like that. But then also yeah
dark leafy greens, kale, spinach, arugula. – So speaking of the carnivores, you know I was on tour
with Jordan Peterson and he became famous, or infamous for partaking
in the carnivore diet, which I think his
daughter Mikayla has now called the lion diet. – [Max] The lion diet. – Which is quite
literally only beef. And I was on tour with this guy. He ate rib eyes for breakfast. He’d often have two
rib eyes for lunch, and sometimes a whole
tomahawk at night, or maybe two more rib
eyes, little salt. He had some club soda,
water, that’s it. People kept asking me,
this can’t be true. And I was like if he’s
secreting eating cookies in his hotel room I
don’t know about it, but from what I know
he was keeping to it. And I did see
throughout the year that we were
together on the road that he actually, his skin
started looking better. He said it fixed some stuff related to oral hygiene. And that I thought
his hair looked even a little
thicker or something. Have you studied this at all? Do you sense an imbalance there? Not about him specifically, but just generally
when people do these, what are seemingly sort
of extreme versions that you were talking about? – Yeah, well I think meat is very nutrient dense. There’s certain, I think
people in the carnivore community, you know
there’s some debate about whether or
not they’re getting adequate amounts of vitamin C, or even optimal
amounts of vitamin C, which is found predominately in, you can get it in, you can get small
amounts of vitamin C in fresh liver, raw fresh liver, but you gotta eat raw
fresh liver to get it if you’re a carnivore. – By the way, I should mention that in the midst of all this he had a physical for
some insurance stuff, and all his numbers, he told me, came back fine. – No, I think that
meat is very healthy. I think that there’s
a lot of confusion about the value of meat
in a healthful diet, in an environmentally
friendly diet, or way of eating I should say. But yeah, no, I’m
a big advocate. The people that I
see tend to do best on a carnivore diet, ’cause it’s a very
extreme elimination diet, is essentially what it is. And it’s also a very, it’s very hard to
over consume meat because protein is the most
satiating macronutrient. It’s gonna be more
satiating than fat, it’s gonna be more
satiating than carbs. So it’s very difficult
to overeat meat. So a lot of people,
what you’ll see is they’re gonna end
up losing weight. And when you lose weight, a lot of biomarkers
that we associate with ill health
tend to get fixed. You know if you have
high blood pressure it’s gonna go down
when you lose weight. Inflammatory markers
and things like that. So just losing weight
is gonna help you if you are overweight. But also people with
inflammatory conditions

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